Curse

White Designs · Aug 31, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

First off, this is not yet another Fragility build talking about the same old issues. I've read and scanned the other threads dealing with this. I am not concerned with how effective or not Fragility/Virulence is, just on how to optimize what it can do through attributes.

The main thing I would like help with is what amount of Fast-Casting would be appropriate. Obviously, this is a very important attribute for Fragility Mesmers and I am not too familiar with exactly how the diminishing returns work. So I would appreciate any input from math specialists or from experienced Mesmers on their respective fast-cast levels.

The current attribute setup I've been using is:

Fast Cast: 10+1
Illusion: 12+4
Inspiration: 7+1
Curses: 4
Domination: Whatever's Left

With the skills:

Fragility
Phantom Pain
Shatter Delusions
Virulence [E]
Drain Enchantment
Energy Tap
Rend Enchantments
Resurrection Signet

Assuming that most likely the enemy will be unable to remove the Fragility (due to a hex heavy team or such), should the attributes be tinkered? Right now its designed for fastest spike and casting but the glaring thing is that domination is very low, leading to a weak Shatter Delusions.

arredondo · Aug 31, 2005, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Shatter Delusions is the most unimportant skill in the setup. You can benefit by dropping it altogether, but you end up having to wait 10 seconds for PP to end naturally (or wait for a Hex removal). The benefit of that method is that you'd gain .75 seconds between the time a Deep Wound forms and when Virulence has finished its cast. With SD, you cast it in .25 and wait .75 to lay down Virulence. A small window, but that leaves the Deep Wound open for removal during the 1.6 seconds that your stats would allow. Without PP, you can get Virulence applied in .6 seconds.

But, what if you don't want to wait 10 seconds for PP? Well, there are other options there as well. You would take away one of your disenchants along with Shatter Delusions. Drop the Domination line altogether. The two new skills you'd use are Plague Sending/Touch and Signet of Agony. A cast sequence would go like this:

Fragility-->PP (for protection and Deep Wound)-->Signet of Agony-->Plague Sending-->Virulence

You have just added 36 additional Fragility damage through Bleeding to replace the 67 max damage of a high-Domination Shatter Delusions. Plus you have a third degen to go along with Disease and Poison (-11 degn total). That comes to a bonus 40 damage over ten seconds and fully replaces SD (calculated due to only get the benefit of an additional -2 degen).

Deep Wound will eventually trigger Fragility too, giving you five triggers altogether. The Bleeding from SoA lasts 25 seconds regardless of the stats, and any Blood points you put in simply add extra damage if you use it near your enemy.

If you want to minimize Hex use, consider using SoA+PS exclusively over PP. You'd cast SoA before Fragility and send it over, then F+V is a speedy combo that's hard to stop even under NR. That way you only have one Hex to worry about in any battle. There is the loss of spike damage from PP+SD (about 20% adding in some Bleeding degen), but it's added stability and you can buffer damage in other ways.

smurfhunter · Aug 31, 2005, 01:39 AM // 01:39

arredondo i read the first thing you wrote and wanted to yell. shatter hex is critical. it makes a deep wound. which is like the only way you can kill someone with the measly 30 damage on a frag. waiting for it will do... nothing...

btw... PLEASE dont make another like huge argue chain, this is my only post here so state your criticism but dont get all excited - im not responding.

arredondo · Aug 31, 2005, 01:53 AM // 01:53

It's Shatter Delusions, not Shatter Hex. And of the four main skills used, it is the one that can be exchanged first for alternative ideas. Phantom Pain can be ditched next. The only ones required are Frag+Virul, and I agree that the primary build that includes PP+SD gets the power out of it to make it feared by the unprepared.

However, like the OP's build, it is possible to accomodate other attribute lines for other purposes if you tweak the damage down a bit. These are just some suggestions to help him along.

Nightwish · Aug 31, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

It seems to me Phantom Pain is very critical for the surprise spike that "may" kill the opponent. Without it Frag+Virul is probably inferior to other spiking combos, is it not?

smurfhunter · Aug 31, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nightwish

It seems to me Phantom Pain is very critical for the surprise spike that "may" kill the opponent. Without it Frag+Virul is probably inferior to other spiking combos, is it not?

...my point. not to mention deep wound is the condition that sets of virulence

arredondo · Aug 31, 2005, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Inferior damage wise? Most likely, but the OP is exploring some additional roles. It depends on the make up of his team whether there is a net gain of it all. If he can do 65% damage consistently and also take care of other business, it may be enough for what his team needs. I have quite a few specialized builds with F+V (or even using only one of them). They all have certain uses that make them productive in the right scenario. For pure damage, sure, go with the now-standard that I still primarily use myself.

awcasper · Sep 01, 2005, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Actually, any condition is capable of setting off Virulence.

Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions is indeed a potent combo in itself, any Fragger knows that. Combo it with Frag + Viru and it is pure bliss. So much potential spiking dmg from 4 skills in such a short time is pretty awesome.

While not as heavy hitting as the spike damage you get from deep wound, bleeding from Signet of Agony + Plague Sending is an explorable option. Although, if the OP wants to keep the build more spike and less Dot, PP + SD with 8+ dom. is hard to beat at the moment.

The fun thing about Mesmers is that just by exchanging a few skills, a build can evolve from, say a spiker, to something completely different. Lets keep the options open and the ideas fresh, and maybe one of these days we will have a superior mes spiking build.^^

White Designs · Sep 01, 2005, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Well, Signet of Agony + Plague Sending is not very useful in my opinion. Why go through all that trouble just for one more condition? I was actually thinking about dropping the Rend in favor of another Illusion spell, either Phantasm or Conundrum.

However, I could still use any help I can get with the attribute setup. If Domination is a good line, how would the setup look like, and at what point does Fast-Casting (due to Aftercast or other game mechanics) stop being needed?

cookiehoarder · Sep 01, 2005, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Shatter Delusions is important. Although I only runt his build in 4v4 arenas >_> the -120...-167 helps a lot. The 60-100+ is from the drop in life.

I run this build even though it is squishy.
16 illusion
13 dom
9 fast

skills
1. virulence
2. shatter delusions
3. phantom pain
4. fragility
5. e burn (for extra 72 damage)
6. diversion
7. distortion/hex breaker/arcane theivery.
8. res sig

For my weapon I use illusion staff with +60 life.

Runes
super illusion
super domination
vigor rune
minor fast cast

arredondo · Sep 01, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

I've done Fragility builds for so long, I probably know dozens of variations. You only lose 67 damage if you drop SD and keep PP, which will degen -60 if you let it end naturally for the Deep Wound anyway. While it takes the full 10 seconds, your net loss is only -7 compared to a fast F+V cast sequence with SD.

I misspoke when I said above that SD was the most unimportant skill, because it is important or I wouldn't have included it in my original post months ago. I meant to say it was the least important. Without it as described above, you have points for any other Attribute line you wish and you still have three core skills to spike up the damage --> Frag, Virul, and PP. Dropping PP really changes the build (and exposes Fragility for removal unless a new Hex is added), but great results are possible without that one too.

Are the original four, core skills the best in general for pure damage? I haven't said otherwise. But if you lop off some damage (your team can make up the difference perhaps), you can find even more functions for your character builds and have the attribute points to do them right. It's not about replacing the main build, or saying these ideas are "better"... people just like to play around with options to see what they may come up with.

Ollj · Sep 02, 2005, 11:52 PM // 23:52

I use Mark of Protection on the person that gets the first hex, he gets conditions gallore and -10 health degen but fragility and shatter hex HEALS him enough to keep him alife.

While mark of protection recharges I just use a Hex Remover.

And than thers my interrupt ranger, it targets mesmers first anyways, they get dazed, interrupted and die.

owned

White Designs · Sep 03, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

I use Mark of Protection on the person that gets the first hex, he gets conditions gallore and -10 health degen but fragility and shatter hex HEALS him enough to keep him alife.

While mark of protection recharges I just use a Hex Remover.

And than thers my interrupt ranger, it targets mesmers first anyways, they get dazed, interrupted and die.

owned

Heh, I was more concerned with building my Fragility Mesmer for taking on opponents who know what they're doing. And for the record, this isn't a discussion on whether Frag is good or not, just how to make it the best it can be.